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#12416 - 08/10/06 05:05 AM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
gryphon Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 298
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I appreciate the acknowledgement Curtise but I sometimes wonder whether I'm wasting my time on this sort of thing. This board has been running for many years and there have been ich conferences since the early 80's, yet there has been no mention of the potential toxicity of ingredients in lotions because of the absorbed dosage levels of ich patients. I appear to have been the first one ever to bring the paraben issue up on this BB back in June in a thread called "infant skin care" even though it has been contraversial for over a decade. That's what makes me relunctant to appear as a lone voice in the desert. Also as Courtney just showed through her derm's email, either most doc's don't have a clue or it's just a huge brouhaha created by the natural/organic products industry that is not substiated through research.

Anyway in partial answer to yours and JDS question. Parabens have estrogen like qualities that some suspect may promote breast cancer growth. The EU report I linked above also found that its hormone-disruptive qualities can affect sperm count in men. The issue is whether the "safe" findings, which incidently do mention "safe concentrations", apply to the very high does absorbed by those with ich. I mentioned that I use 30 bottles/year of my specialty lotions in an above post, but I omitted that I also use about 20 bottles/year of Cetaphil. Usage can get much much higher for others depending on type, severity and climatic environment. Those are very high levels of exposure. But I have just not be able to find any reputable research to indicate a risk and apparently neither ich derms, ich organizations or anyone else really address it. If anyone can show me something then please do Hence my reluctance to fan flames. Its late and I have to get up again in 6 hours so its beddy-by time. But a site that lists the potential toxicity of cosmetics is a Canadian site called www.lesstoxicguide.ca

I have pasted an excerpt from the site below. It address the basic reasons for my mention of lanolin and propylene glycol. But the latter is in my specialty lotions as well as Imizazolidinyl Urea and Polysorbate 60. So absolute avoidance of potientially toxic ingredients is really hard. At some point you have to apply some balance and pick and choose what you can and can't avoid based on choice, skin quality and personal budget. Everything in ich care will carry some risks from the more tangible ones of retinoids use to the more abstract ones of lotion use. There is an article on the Skintherapyletter.com site that also indicates what many ingredients in lotions do. I have that on my laptop (not with me now). I'll post that later as well as short info on coal tar and petroleum distillates (I've got a bunch of bookmarked links on the laptop)

The pasted excerpt immediately follows:

Common Hazardous Ingredients in Personal Care Products


More than 5,000 ingredients are allowed for use in personal care products. Many are identified by government agencies as hazardous, but many others remain untested. Some ingredients with known health hazards are very common in personal care products, both conventional products and alternative ones. We are providing information on some of these common ingredients. In preparing this guide, we screened products and chose those which had the least amount of these hazardous chemicals for our Best and Good sections.

DEA, TEA, MEA - Diethanolamine (DEA), triethanolamine (TEA), and monoethanolamine (MEA) are hormone disruptors. They are also known to combine with nitrates to form cancer-causing nitrosamines. If a product contains nitrites (used as a preservative or present as a contaminant not listed on labels) a chemical reaction can occur either during manufacturing or after a product is made. There is no way to know which products contain nitrosamines because government does not require manufacturers to disclose this information on the label.
A 1997 study by the U.S. National Toxicology Program found that these compounds themselves might also be carcinogenic. Repeated skin application of DEA was found to cause liver and kidney damage in animals. The study also discovered that when absorbed through the skin, DEA accumulated in organs. TEA may also cause contact dermatitis in some individuals.

Dioxins - You won't find dioxin listed on any label. It's formed as an accidental by-product of some manufacturing processes using chlorine, especially paper bleaching and the creation of plastic. Dioxin is one of the most powerful carcinogens known and accumulates in body fat. Mainstream deodorants and anti-bacterial soaps are suspect. Chlorine bleached tissues, toilet paper and cotton balls can contain dioxin. Plastic bottles may leach dioxin into creams, shampoos and other products we use daily.

DMDM Hydantoin, Diazolidinyl Urea and Imidazolidinyl Urea - DMDM hydantoin, diazolidinyl urea and imidazolidinyl urea are preservatives that release formaldehyde. It is estimated that 20 per cent of people exposed to this chemical will experience an allergic reaction. Exposure to formaldehyde may cause joint pain, depression, headaches, chest pains, ear infections, chronic fatigue, dizziness and loss of sleep. In lab tests, formaldehyde has caused cancer and damaged DNA. Formaldehyde is a known sensitizer. Imidazolidinyl urea may cause contact dermatitis in some individuals.

FD&C Colours - Used extensively in personal care products, FD&C colours are made from coal. Coal tar colours have been found to cause cancer in animals and many people experience allergic reactions like skin irritation and contact dermatitis. They are listed as FD&C or D&C, followed by a colour and a number. Example: FD&C Red No. 6, or D&C Green No. 6.

Fragrance - Synthetic fragrance is the most common ingredient found in personal care products. "Fragrance on a label can indicate the presence of up to 4,000 separate ingredients. Most or all of them are synthetic. Symptoms reported to the FDA have included headaches, dizziness, rashes, skin discoloration, violent coughing and vomiting, and allergic skin irritation. Clinical observations by medical doctors have shown that exposure to fragrances can affect the central nervous system, causing depression, hyperactivity, irritability, inability to cope, and other behavioral changes." (Home Safe Home, Debra Lynn Dadd). Fragrance is a known trigger of asthma. Many of the compounds in fragrance are suspected or proven carcinogens. Phthalates in perfumes are known hormone disruptors. In 1989 the US National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health evaluated 2,983 fragrance chemicals for health effects. They identified 884 of them as toxic substances. The US Environmental Protection Agency found that 100% of perfumes contain toluene, which can cause liver, kidney and brain damage as well as damage to a developing fetus.

Lanolin - Lanolin is a common allergen and because of this has been replaced in many products. But there is another reason to be cautious about lanolin. Lanolin is derived from sheep’s wool. It may contain residues of insecticides into which sheep are dipped to control external parasites. These insecticides are fat-soluble. Dr. Samuel Epstein, chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition, says these chemicals are likely to migrate through the skin and into the bloodstream. However, some sheep producers now control parasites by injecting sheep with insecticides, which work by circulating through the animal’s bloodstream. The best way to know if the lanolin in a personal care product is free of insecticide is to look for a certified organic product. Uncontaminated lanolin is perfectly safe, although it can cause contact dermatitis in some people. Lanolin oil, a more refined product, has been found to have little insecticide residue. Purified lanolin oil is a healthy product, as long as you aren't allergic to it.

Lead - Lead is a known carcinogen and hormone disruptor. It is readily absorbed through the skin, and accumulates in the bones. It causes neurological damage and behaviour abnormalities, and large accumulations can result in leg cramps, muscle weakness, numbness and depression. Lead is found in some hair dyes.

Nonylphenols - This estrogen-mimicking chemical is a surfactant used for its detergent properties. It can be found in some plastics, as well as shaving creams, shampoos and hair colours. It can be created when certain chemicals commonly found in personal care products break down. Nonylphenols can be a component in polyvinyl chloride (PVC), a compound often found in acrylic nails. They are persistent in the environment and of such concern that many European countries are phasing them out. Some manufacturers have voluntarily discontinued their use.

Parabens - An estrogen mimic, parabens are preservatives with antibacterial properties. Widely used in all kinds of personal care products, paraben is usually preceded by the prefixes methyl-, ethyl-, butyl-, or propyl-. Parabens can cause allergic reactions or contact dermatitis in some people. Preservatives are one of the leading causes of contact dermatitis. There are safer practical alternatives to parabens, including vitamin E, vitamin C and grapefruit seed extract.

PEG - Polyethylene glycol (PEG) is used in cleaners and some oven cleaners to dissolve oil and grease. It can also be found in many personal care products. PEG may be contaminated with 1,4-dioxane, a carcinogen. Dioxane readily penetrates the skin. While dioxane can be removed from products easily and economically by vacuum stripping during the manufacturing process, there is no way to determine which products have undergone this process. Labels are not required to list this information.

Phenylenediamine - Used in permanent hair dyes, phenylenediamine can cause eczema, bronchial asthma, gastritis, skin irritation and even death. It is also a carcinogen. It can react with other chemicals to cause photosensitivity. The US Food and Drug Administration proposed legislation which would have required warning labels on products, advising that this ingredient can penetrate skin and has been determined to cause cancer in lab animals. If passed, beauty salons would have had to post warnings for their customers. Cosmetic industry lobbyists defeated the proposal.

Phthalates - Everyone in the general population is exposed to phthalates from one source or another. They are found in many products from plastics to shampoo. These hormone-disrupting chemicals are suspected of contaminating breast milk and causing damage to the kidneys, liver, lungs and reproductive organs. One type of phthalate, diethyl phthalate (DEP) is commonly found in fragrances and other personal care products. Phthalates are used to enhance fragrances, as solvents, and to denature alcohol. A study published in Environmental Health Perspectives (December 2002) found that DEP is damaging to the DNA of sperm in adult men at current levels of exposure. DNA damage to sperm can lead to infertility and may also be linked to miscarriages, birth defects, infertility and cancer in offspring. DEP is the phthalate found in the highest levels in humans. Recent product tests found the chemical in every fragrance tested in the United States. Manufacturers are not required to list phthalates on product labels, so they are difficult to avoid.

Polysorbate 60 and Polysorbate 80 - Polysorbate 60 and polysorbate 80 may be contaminated with 1,4-dioxane, a carcinogen. Dioxane readily penetrates the skin. While dioxane can be removed from products easily and economically by vacuum stripping during the manufacturing process, there is no way to determine which products have undergone this process. Labels are not required to list this information.

Propylene Glycol - Propylene glycol is recognized as a neurotoxin by the National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety in the U.S. It is known to cause contact dermatitis, kidney damage and liver abnormalities. It is widely used as a moisture-carrying ingredient in place of glycerine because it is cheaper and more readily absorbed through the skin. The Material Safety Data Sheet for propylene glycol warns workers handling this chemical to avoid skin contact.

Quaternary Ammonium Compounds (Quats) - Listed on labels as benzalkonium chloride, cetrimonium bromide, quaternium-15 and quaternium 1-29, these compounds are caustic and can irritate the eyes. Quaternium-15 is a formaldehyde releaser and the number one cause of preservative-related contact dermatitis. There is concern about their potential as sensitizers. For about 5% of people, quats are an extreme sensitizer and can cause a variety of asthma-like symptoms, even respiratory arrest. When they are used with hot running water, steam increases the inhalation of vapours. These compounds are used in a wide range of products as preservatives, surfactants and germicides. They make hair and skin feel softer immediately after use but long-term use will cause dryness.

Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate - This chemical is a known skin irritant and enhances allergic response to other toxins and allergens. The U.S. government has warned manufacturers of unacceptable levels of dioxin formation in some products containing this ingredient. The chemical can react with other ingredients to form cancer-causing nitrosamines. Sodium lauryl sulfate is used as a lathering agent. It is present in ninety per cent of commercial shampoos, as well as skin creams and some brands of toothpaste.
Sodium laureth sulfate may be contaminated with 1,4-dioxane, a carcinogen. Dioxane readily penetrates the skin. While dioxane can be removed from products easily and economically by vacuum stripping during the manufacturing process, there is no way to determine which products have undergone this process. Labels are not required to list this information.

Talc - Talc is a naturally occurring mineral which is carcinogenic when inhaled. In addition, women who regularly use talc in the genital area are at increased risk for ovarian cancer. Airborne talc in body powders and antiperspirant sprays can irritate the lungs. Talcum powder is reported to cause coughing, vomiting, and even pneumonia. Many pediatricians now tell parents to avoid using talc on babies as it can cause respiratory distress, sometimes resulting in death. Talc is found in blushes, face powders, eye shadows, liquid foundation and skin fresheners. Used near the eyes, it can irritate sensitive mucous membranes. Talc in liquid formulations poses minimal risk.


[This message has been edited by gryphon (edited August 10, 2006).]

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#12417 - 08/10/06 11:03 AM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
Curtise Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 115
Loc: Sheffield, UK
Wow!
We're all doomed, but - wow!

Thanks gryphon (sorry, gave you a capital G before!) and please don't feel that you're wasting your time passing on this information and highlighting these concerns. If people don't know, they can't make informed choices, and I for one think that's really important.

[This message has been edited by Curtise (edited August 10, 2006).]

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#12418 - 08/10/06 02:33 PM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
gryphon Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 298
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Now for the question on petrolatum/mineral oil. I’ve already mentioned in an earlier post above what to google if you want info on the problem of petrolatum trapping toxins in the body by blocking pores. In addition here are the reasons why petrolatum is a toxicity concern in itself and measures the European Union has taken to restrict its use in cosmetics. First a recent newspaper article that addresses petrolatum and other toxins. (It mentions AHA’s but remember with Ich skin we are dealing with very thick skin that needs to be stripped. Nonetheless this is why AHA’s should not be used on sensitive baby skin, thin skin, and only in low concentrations on the face). BTW the Ottawa Citizen is one of the leading and most reputable newspapers in Canada and the primary newspaper in its National Capital Region

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=9e5a72a9-d392-4516-9c6d- 551716cf9964&p=3

Next is the toxicity status of petrolatum, which also mentions restrictions (based on purity) on its use in lotions outside North America.

http://www.ewg.org/reports/skindeep2/report.php?type=INGREDIENT&id=455

This site has an express “green-agenda” so I’m reluctant to post it but nonetheless it concisely explains the problem with petrolatum (and parabens etc.)

http://ecomall.com/greenshopping/skin.htm

This site also has an “green-agenda” but again it does a decent job of addressing recent regulatory action and consideration of petrolatums in cosmetics

http://www.health-report.co.uk/petroleum_petrolatum_health_concerns.htm

Finally this is a petroleum industry report that deals with petrolatum, and what the industry should do to protect itself from further regulation and consumer scrutiny. I’m including it because I think the paragraph title “Recent Regulatory Activity” and the 3 titled paragraphs that follow are interesting and pertinent. Read the whole report as it provides a window on the Petroleum industry (specifically Penreco) describing the problem with Petrolatum/mineral oil.

www.penreco.com/newsevents/tradearticles/NPRA2003_Pet_Regulations.pdf


And finally this is an informative piece on parabens and issues with regulation itself. A good read for anyone interested.
http://www.safecosmetics.org/newsroom/alt_med_mag_1_06.cfm

Rather than harp on this any further I think this now adequately addresses the issues of parabens, propylene glycol (aka PEG), petrolatum/mineral oil, and lanolin in lotions. Each parent or user should make an informed decision based on individual circumstances. I’m not telling anyone not to use these ingredients in ich care. Just be aware of what they are before you decide upon a product. I have several more links but rather than belabouring the point I leave it at that.


For JDS, though it is not a comprehensive listing, this is an article that tries to explain what ingredients in lotions do. It does not deal with toxicity. I've posted it before on this BB and so some of you may find it redundant.
http://www.skintherapyletter.com/2005/10.5/1.html


And for Curtise, there is no ‘political agenda’ or ‘statement of affiliation’ in the absence of capitals in my screenname. ;-)

I simply forgot to press ‘shift’ when hastily registering as a member. So no need to apologize for not using only lower case letters.



[This message has been edited by gryphon (edited August 10, 2006).]

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#12419 - 08/10/06 10:32 PM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
threerxli Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 515
Loc: virginia
gryphon,
Please continue to write and respond on this board. Many parents and people concerned with ichthyosis do read the board. I believe that we all have different views and opinions, which make this board so unique. With different views, knowledge, study and research...we have come so far! Sometimes what we learn in the process of life teaches us more than we ever dreamed, and sometimes life sends us in a completely different direction than we would expect. This board is for everyone, and maybe, just maybe ANYONES knowledge will help someone at one time, even if it is only one person that this advice helps, isn't it worth it? This also would not be the first time a doctor was educated by a concerned patient or parent right???? (Regardless of your belief with this post.)

So please, everyone on this board...-do not discourage anyone from posting unless it is causing extreme harm. I also think we all know to do our own research, understand our own medical needs and values and check with a doctor, or trusted medical specialist. Just a thought.

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#12420 - 08/11/06 01:17 AM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
Angel24755 Offline

Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 633
Loc: PA
Quote:
Originally posted by threerxli:

So please, everyone on this board...-do not discourage anyone from posting unless it is causing extreme harm. I also think we all know to do our own research, understand our own medical needs and values and check with a doctor, or trusted medical specialist. Just a thought.


I hope you don't think my intentions were to discourage gryphon from posting. I did appreciate the information (actually, I believe I said that in my post) and my only intention was to explain that I wasn't tossing everything out...only the new cream that I was planning on using with my kids, head to toe, every day. I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't freaking out as I felt gryphon suggested. That was all.
Like gryphon said, tone is very hard to figure out via internet. This is one of the reasons I tend to lurk on most bb's. The first time you say something that might be questioning or critical, it comes off as an attack...tone is everything in communication and you can't get that on a bb. Please understand I had no ill intentions...simply didn't want everyone to think I was going on a mad rampage through my home to rid it from parabens LOL.
I did not read anything about the dangers of anything else because really, if you take ALL of the ingredients out that could potentially cause harm, you have nothing left.
Lisa
_________________________

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#12421 - 08/11/06 01:24 AM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
gryphon Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 298
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Thanks for the kind words, threerxli. I was exhausted after a late evening at the time of my 1AM post. I wasn't making much sense even to myself. [img]http://www.ichthyosis.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] But I did not mean to suggest that I was shying away from participating on this BB.

But so I make myself clearer, I *always* invite cordial disagreement on anything I post on this BB.

As for my posts in this thread, I’m not advocating the validity of any of the info. Rather this is just stuff I’ve come across when researching the ingredients in my own lotions (I'm like an online squirrel constantly burying interesting tidbits of info I find 'in' my hard drive to dig up later if I need it). However, I have not found any academic research proving or disproving much of it. That’s why I expressed a reluctance to post. I was expressing a personal reluctance to posting these specific claims about certain lotion ingredients. Because I have not come across any info or discussion on these issues in the ich community or unbiased medical circles, I did not want to monger fear or concern on this BB.

This knowledge did make me look at my lotions differently. It did not however make me look at the objectives of my ich care any differently. So I just put it out there, leaving it for anyone who cares to read it to either accept or dismiss, substantiate or dispute.

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#12422 - 09/05/06 07:43 PM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
Andrea Grobe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 4
Loc: Novi,MI
Please read my new post regarding Arbonne's products. Mineral oil is definitely the worst thing to put on skin. It initially feels great but it acts like a plastic sheeting to one's skin, leaching out essential nutrients and blocks anything from getting in that you want to. Arbonne's baby oil (natural oils) have been a Godsend to me and I would love to send you a sample! I have suffered from this awful skin condition my whole life and I have for the 1st time found some relief! You can send a personal e-mail to me too at andreagrobe@sbcglobal.net

Hope I can be of some help!

All the best,
Andrea

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#12423 - 09/05/06 08:14 PM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
CoolCattyMatty Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 68
Loc: Corpus Christi, TX, USA
FYI: For those of you wanting to stay away from parabens - they are in arbonne products.

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#12424 - 09/06/06 06:11 AM Re: Hydrolatum - tried it
CShell Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 1193
Loc: Fort Meade, MD
That's sort of what we're looking for...we use Aquaphor not as a moisturizer (well, partly as a moisturizer) but mostly as a barrier layer, b/c Julia's lacking that b/c of NS. She always needs some sort of buffer over her skin...I'm just worried b/c the Arbonne page only listed key ingredients, and not the inactive ones, and sometime lactic acid is an inactive ingredient and something we DEFINATELY have to stay away from.
_________________________
Courtney
Mom to Julia

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